Curse

allience · Oct 04, 2006, 10:56 PM // 22:56

in nightfall, we'll have a total of 10 professions to chose from. shrinking the party to 6 only LIMITS possibilities to make a creative and versatile build. we can only chose 48 skills in total.

-at least 2 chars will have to be some sort of healers (boon prots any1?)
-1 char needs to be some support/dmg because we need extra counter to vim/smite/condition
-this leaves us with 4 offensive chars (which is 32 skills (3 are rez sig for sure).
{EDIT}counting the support/dmg player as an offensive char to fit in the math because Wasteland Squidget made such a valid contribution to this thread.

my point is, u just can't experiment much with 32 skills. so this change in my opinion can't bring out the best in ppl. it will only make some easy fame for gimmick builds.

also it's certain that experienced pvp players will adapt to the change, but that doesn't mean they'll enjoy it. personally i was looking forward to making some exciting and challenging builds but now i'll have to conform to something simple because i'm limited to 48 skills.

you keep saying iway is not letting ppl enjoy HA and it's funny that you didn't notice iway died about a month ago. since the double fame event and the nerf of edge bomb iway got scarce. and after the latest skill update, i've rarely seen iway groups. maybe u're confusing iway with VIM, which indeed has been increasing. and i'll assure you, u'll see a lot more vim/modded vim once 6v6 is implemented.

about new players, they'll have the same problem as now. there will always be rank discrimination. and franky new comers just mean free fame for old players who obviously won't have any trouble running some smite build. pld players are quite happy to see new ppl because they are quite east to beat while waching tv..

overall this change won't enchance the enjoiment factor for new players and it won't allow old players to be creative.

scamPOR · Oct 04, 2006, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Creativity in Warcraft 3 was essentially ruined by replays. Starcraft still maintains a lot because well that game has a lot more depth to it. Obs mode ruined a lot of creativity in Hoh imo. Previously you had to actually play the other team to copy them and even then it wouldn't be exact. Now I think gvg gets around this problem because they don't need to worry about a lot of the map dynamics but in hoh you do.

Anyone thinking 6v6 will change the number of homogenous builds is lying to themselves. It will be the same crap just not for a month or 2. At the end of the preview people were still bloodspiking, it might not be as insane but it is hardly a ton worse.

BenO_Under · Oct 04, 2006, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Don't blame Anet

blame the people who liked the 6v6 and got a bunch of /signeds to make it perniment so Anet thought "It seems like everyone wants it so we will give it to them."

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 04, 2006, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by allience

-at least 2 chars will have to be some sort of healers (boon prots any1?)
-1 char needs to be some support/dmg because we need extra counter to vim/smite/condition
-this leaves us with 4 offensive chars which is 32 skills (3 are rez sig for sure).

1 + 2 + 4 = 6?

Man, I knew I needed to take more math.

luilui · Oct 04, 2006, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

1 + 2 + 4 = 6?

Man, I knew I needed to take more math.

dude, bet u have no better argument than picking on ppl's silly maths mistake.

i would like to see how someone that support the change argue with what she said.

ZenRgy · Oct 04, 2006, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Should've just made a seperate arena, sadly this isn't happening. ViMway and pressure builds will dominate - it's far too easy to overpower a 2 monk backline, maybe we will see more E/Mo etc. in HA.

azunder · Oct 04, 2006, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by allience

in nightfall, we'll have a total of 10 professions to chose from. shrinking the party to 6 only LIMITS possibilities to make a creative and versatile build. we can only chose 48 skills in total.

Sure, there are less combinations. But, what matters is how much combinations are actually viable:

-Some skills' effectiveness depends on the amount of players. For example, heal party or in TA isn't that great. But, it's a money skill in GvG. So, there might be some skills which will actually be more effective when there are less people around.

-Anet also mentioned exciting map changes! which means that other skills might be come useful due to new tactics per map.

On the other hand, you could say that you might have to pack the same amount of counter skills in your build. So, since you have less overall skill slots, less skills are available to do something other than counter your opponent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by allience

-at least 2 chars will have to be some sort of healers (boon prots any1?)
-1 char needs to be some support/dmg because we need extra counter to vim/smite/condition
-this leaves us with 3 (corrected from 4 to 3) offensive chars which is 32 skills (3 are rez sig for sure).

Since the enemy has less offensive chars, perhaps you also need less defensive chars? Or, the support/dmg guy might end up carrying less support. Depends on what the objectives are.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 04, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by luilui

dude, bet u have no better argument than picking on ppl's silly maths mistake.

i would like to see how someone that support the change argue with what she said.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...9&postcount=44

Reading the entire thread is key.

In short, with the decrease in player sizes and (hopefully) positive changes to the maps, you shouldn't need to take in nearly as many skills. You don't need to bring interruption for Bloodspike, you don't need to bring wards for IWAY. More importantly, if they change HoH itself you won't need to bring the multitude of skills every HA build uses to babysit the Ghostly Hero.

Allience's assertation that you need three defensive characters to counter a 6-man smite/ViM/condition team is also false. While an off-monk heal party or Draw Conditions certainly has its uses, there is no need to run it on a purely defensive character. Saying that you need a devoted character to counter these things is pointless hyperbola.

To put it another way - every balanced HA or GvG build has certain skills and counters that you 'need' to bring. In HA you have to bring protection and disruption for the ghostly to cap, offense to prevent the enemy ghostly from capping, and massive defense to keep your ghost alive on the altar. In GvG you need to bring a flag-running capable character. In short, builds need to pack a lot of otherwise crappy to counter specific gimmicks or map peculiarities. Sometimes this kind of map mechanic fine, but I don't feel that its worked particularly well in HA. You have to pack so many skills into a build 'as a given' that there's barely room for any creativity afterwards. Though it feels like you have 64 skills, in reality you need the Seeking Arrows guy and you need 3 monks and you need warriors or spike for offense. Once you've put in the necessities you only have room for a couple characters that will define the build.

Since 6 man HA seriously reduces the number of gimmicks, and the map changes are likely to reduce reliance on specific build counters to maps, HAers should actually be able to use a MORE skills and characters to define their builds and be unique.

master_of_puppets · Oct 04, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

I dont think a new arena will help a lot. If it ends up people like it, it means it people in HA/ TA/ AB get dispersed even more cuz some people will go to this one. And what will the reward for the new arena be? in HA theres fame, favor, items, name broadcast and so on...

Minus Sign · Oct 04, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

You seriously think that Arenanet is going to decide to give up all their hard work on rebalancing the maps for 6v6 because of some whiners on forums, without even trying out the new gametype? Seriously?

Why not? They're scrubbing 2 years of 8v8 work because a bunch GvGers and PvEers whined about all the gimicks--"its so rampant, it sucks I hate Anet, nerf cry wahhhhhhh!" can't get their A-teams together at night sometimes and don't like PuGing the last two members.

BTW, I love how this JR-wannabe nooblet (not very nice of me to say that about you, now is it?) wants to equate me to a whiner. You do realise the only nerf before this I took a stand against was the MM nerf. I haven't busted them on any other skill balance or arena change (from nerfing my monk farmer to screwing over my Rit Lord to "fixing" the body gurads because they were too hard

). And aside from my massive disapproval of the online store, I don't bad-mouth Anet unless they screw up.

This is the second time in two years I've felt strongly enough about an in-game issue to complain. So check the attitude or get the ---- out. Let me break it down for you 6v6 loving "we can't play 8v8 HA its too hard" whiners: too f---in bad.

We're not on your side. We're on the other side.

/rant. Now...is that what you all wanted to hear? Will that really get your attention? I consider myself a pretty mellow person...until people decide I and others like me are their personal Spittoon...

We're not whiners. We're concerned. We don't want this and feel its being pushed onto us by people who don't play the game regularly anyway.

Stop insulting us because we don't like what you do. IF you do like it, fine. Speak you piece and speak it here. But don't insult other posters--generalized or otherwise--to make your point. It doesn't make your point; it makes you rude.

@Wasteland Squidget: sorry if the post offends. You're getting the truckload of three threads worth of agression unloaded on you in one blow.

Nurse With Wound · Oct 05, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

This is what Almas Darksoul from top 50 guild TaSH, former leader of DOGS wrote in gwonline forums. I think it should be quoted here, to shatter the illusion that only hardcore HA'ers oppose this chage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Almas Darksoul

I am heavily opposed to the change, and I am a "GvG-player".

HA has always been a great place to relax with casual builds for me, even when I was grinding the emotes there. It didn't require extreme attention or even a high level of skill to play at high levels there.

Non-monk pressure builds became a LOT more powerful during the weekend as some skills that prevent them could no longer be taken - it was sometimes a struggle to beat a team that you could probably crush in 1-2 minutes in 8v8 combat. I honestly don't want to see IWAY/VIMWAY builds becoming more powerful, as there is currently more than enough of them about.

A lot of the complaints about HA is people saying that the grind is not fair, or that other people are elitist towards them - a lot of people seem to not notice that a lot of people worked hard for the fame, and they have legitimate reasons to now want to play with random new people. And IMO, those players with the semi-high fame counts are the ones who will be using the arena for a long time to come.

All of my guild is disgusted with the change, and the majority of the HA dedicated players I know are as well. GvG is not comparable as an alternative to HA - they are completely different arenas. HA is more about the fight, which is what makes it so fun for some people. While some maps can be won by strategy, they can all be won by mindlessly slaughtering the enemy (provided you do it well enough).

I think that all this change will do is cause a large proportion of the current HA'ers to stop playing the arena (perhaps even leaving the game unless an alternative is provided), while creating a large initial influx of newer players. They'll be happy for a while, but they will realise that the grind is always there, regardless of the team size. As is the preference of friends over random strangers for group formation.

Sadly, he didnt posts here, and I think his post deserves more attention here as well. There are top gvg players who doesnt like this madness. You can still stop the change anet, its still not too late!

KitsunE81 · Oct 05, 2006, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkCloud

i hope they BRING BACK THE RIFTS and 6 man burial mound type of map SO HEROES ASCENT CAN ACTUALLY BE FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!

What can I say.... gank Korea?

defrule · Oct 05, 2006, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boofhead

They can only be viable by sacrificng defense -> they are easier to beat.

In my opinion, with less room for counters the very fast spikes can potentially roll other teams faster.

Jha Jha · Oct 05, 2006, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Minus Sign your words are gorgeous I cannot agree with you anymore friend.

At JR and Squishy...I wont bash on you, but seriosuly guys, both you of have absolutely no idea at all..all you have is your polls you make that pvers back u up on and that anet takes into consideration.

To advent xfx...your rank 12 lol..you shouldnt care what happens to tombs anyway (lol @ you)

to people that are for 6v6 (poll takes, pvers, lower ranked players ect. new to tombs (HA but i hate saying HA..its not HA it will never be HA its Tombs of Primeval Kings for old schoolers)) Im not dissing you but if you think its hard getting into a team now, its gona be even worse I promise!

To those who oppose 6v6 change, old school pvpers, grinders of rank 9+ (no matter how you got it nobody is guilty..press K we have same skill sas everyone ..uax/uas ofcourse) Dont lose the faith..i highly doubt anet will do this..

Lets make a hypotetical situation...John Doe is bored and wants to play a mmorpg..he googles for a bit and finds a list with..goe son website looks at screenshots registres and downloaded client and logs on..starts life at lvl 1 like he would in GuildWars.John Doe grinds for endless amounts of hours and is still stuck at lvl 20 where he can only kill birds and sheep and dogs..while X Dominator X has glow armor and has presence when he arives at town and kills everything with just a 1st bough skill...John Doe get mad (hes also very sexualy frustarted lol) goes on forums and make a thread about faster level gain and what the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO would you think the admin would do...bend over for John Doe so he can be cool like x dominators x ..when x dominator x worked for his levels the good ol way....seems to me John Doe wants it easy..like pver and people who cannot get into teams and grind a bit for then selves in GuildWars.....Know this..that even though GW tries so stand out of the rest and it did oh so well...there are unwriten rules and principals....4.665 for renowned hero status is a prestigious thing and is alot of fame...nobody in guildwars is guily of achieving that thats by w/e means neccesary (i.e. the builds they used) they still grinded..they still had to press 12345678 even if it is to activate iway or spam spirits and ofcoues heal and prot....I mean come on dudes we gridned also man..and altho i think showing rank titles is a bit chessy ...we did manage to get 4.665k fame+++++++ know what I mean..The thing GW did was made grinding levels not a problem..but Fame was one of the main things to Grind in tombs to become prestigious and known..and dbl fame weekend w/e no comment we did our thing tho it has many factors i dont wana talk about it im alrdy wrting an essay as it is.

if yall think 8v8 ppl play the same thing 6v6 will be even worse...cuz the buil that wins will leak to gw tv and everyone will run it...Yo w/e this is a long essay im going to stop here...anet your making a big mistake if u implenet this

T Waters/Main O/Freekey Zeekey

p.s. extend your arm, feel your elbow skin..what does it feel like?

defrule · Oct 05, 2006, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jha Jha

Minus Sign your words are gorgeous I cannot agree with you anymore friend.

At JR and Squishy...I wont bash on you, but seriosuly guys, both you of have absolutely no idea at all..all you have is your polls you make that pvers back u up on and that anet takes into consideration.

To advent xfx...your rank 12 lol..you shouldnt care what happens to tombs anyway (lol @ you)

to people that are for 6v6 (poll takes, pvers, lower ranked players ect. new to tombs (HA but i hate saying HA..its not HA it will never be HA its Tombs of Primeval Kings for old schoolers)) Im not dissing you but if you think its hard getting into a team now, its gona be even worse I promise!

To those who oppose 6v6 change, old school pvpers, grinders of rank 9+ (no matter how you got it nobody is guilty..press K we have same skill sas everyone ..uax/uas ofcourse) Dont lose the faith..i highly doubt anet will do this..

Lets make a hypotetical situation...John Doe is bored and wants to play a mmorpg..he googles for a bit and finds a list with..goe son website looks at screenshots registres and downloaded client and logs on..starts life at lvl 1 like he would in GuildWars.John Doe grinds for endless amounts of hours and is still stuck at lvl 20 where he can only kill birds and sheep and dogs..while X Dominator X has glow armor and has presence when he arives at town and kills everything with just a 1st bough skill...John Doe get mad (hes also very sexualy frustarted lol) goes on forums and make a thread about faster level gain and what the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO would you think the admin would do...bend over for John Doe so he can be cool like x dominators x ..when x dominator x worked for his levels the good ol way....seems to me John Doe wants it easy..like pver and people who cannot get into teams and grind a bit for then selves in GuildWars.....Know this..that even though GW tries so stand out of the rest and it did oh so well...there are unwriten rules and principals....4.665 for renowned hero status is a prestigious thing and is alot of fame...nobody in guildwars is guily of achieving that thats by w/e means neccesary (i.e. the builds they used) they still grinded..they still had to press 12345678 even if it is to activate iway or spam spirits and ofcoues heal and prot....I mean come on dudes we gridned also man..and altho i think showing rank titles is a bit chessy ...we did manage to get 4.665k fame+++++++ know what I mean..The thing GW did was made grinding levels not a problem..but Fame was one of the main things to Grind in tombs to become prestigious and known..and dbl fame weekend w/e no comment we did our thing tho it has many factors i dont wana talk about it im alrdy wrting an essay as it is.

if yall think 8v8 ppl play the same thing 6v6 will be even worse...cuz the buil that wins will leak to gw tv and everyone will run it...Yo w/e this is a long essay im going to stop here...anet your making a big mistake if u implenet this

T Waters/Main O/Freekey Zeekey

p.s. extend your arm, feel your elbow skin..what does it feel like?

Good post, I agree fully. However, paragraphs are your friends Jha Jha

for the middle bit.

luilui · Oct 05, 2006, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Though it feels like you have 64 skills, in reality you need the Seeking Arrows guy and you need 3 monks and you need warriors or spike for offense. Once you've put in the necessities you only have room for a couple characters that will define the build.

Since 6 man HA seriously reduces the number of gimmicks, and the map changes are likely to reduce reliance on specific build counters to maps, HAers should actually be able to use a MORE skills and characters to define their builds and be unique.

You do have a point, maybe we'll see more skills, but that's because it's 6v6 not 8v8, just like asking a bunch of HA players to go TA we'll probably see many skills that we dont see in HA. But does that mean it's better or more creative? If u want to see creative build in tombs, why dont Anet just put new maps in that get rid of the fotm builds instead of kicking ppl to a larger TA. Atm Anet's like saying "ok we dont like the way people play HA so we decided to make it into another arena but still call it HA." imo that's not improving it.

However my main concern with 6v6 is that, i'm not convinced that with 48 skills u can create a build that can go through all maps and hold halls more than 5 times.

About fotm build, a large number of players now play BS or IWAY or VIMWAY becoz they dont know a good balance build/ they cant play a good balance build/ they dont have time to make a balance team. And that's to do with their attitude to the game. Do u see changing it to 6v6 will change their attitude? do u think those players are going to go "oh iway doesnt work anymore, let's sit down and make a creative build to win halls". Instead of them playing good balance, i think it's more likely that they'll quit HA.

Any of the problems solved? No. And u leave with a HA without many of the good players becoz the new HA is not their HA anymore. Well and a 6v6 arena with ppl that enjoy it.

The only argument left is that why did Anet make two 8v8 arena in the 1st place. Why cant they test this 6v6 idea for 2 weeks or so, instead of making it permanent after a 3 days event.

defrule · Oct 05, 2006, 01:07 AM // 01:07

While I wish HA to remain the same, I highly doubt ArenaNet will take back something entirely back when they have announced it.

LightningHell · Oct 05, 2006, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commander Ryker

I wasn't thrilled at first with the change but then I saw all the whinney babies crying about it and saying they are going to quit. Now I see it as a good change, it will get rid of all the whinney babies who think they are so leet.

Well said.

I reserve judgement for 6v6 HA, but I automatically have a certain dislike for whiners who whine about something that's not out yet. Try it out first ftw?

Quote:

The only argument left is that why did Anet make two 8v8 arena in the 1st place. Why cant they test this 6v6 idea for 2 weeks or so, instead of making it permanent after a 3 days event.

Good question.

Hole Sale Traps · Oct 05, 2006, 01:09 AM // 01:09

I think this change is about leting new players try out Ha for once ive been i only have 2 fame for 1 reason....its damn near impossable to get a Good group unless you play a FoTM build like iway or vimway

, which i dont like.I like being orignal and playing my own decent builds......so cry all you want over this its likely thats its not gonna get changed, its all makeing the Chunk of what is pvp in this game more acessable to novice players, Remember they could have made it into 8man RA

......-Shutters-

P.S. my Spelling sucks i know this already..Kthx!

Jha Jha · Oct 05, 2006, 01:21 AM // 01:21

@ defarule....happens efverytime thats why I fail english..hell im not a writer